Love, Not H8
Sometimes, when we’re watching an old film, or listening to classic rock, my husband will wistfully say, “I wish I had lived during the sixties.” To which I always respond — not I. In the 60′s, life was peace, love, and The Beatles for some. For others, it was Motown, protests, fire hoses, and hatred. And I always remind my husband — we probably would not have gone to college together and shared those free love good times. Also, it would have been illegal for us to be married up until 1967, when Loving v. Virginia finally struck down miscegenation laws. In the year 2000, the state of Alabama became the last state to repeal its law against mixed-race marriage. In the year 2000!
I am still so proud that America saw beyond race and chose the man I considered to be the best candidate — Barack Obama — to be the next President of the United States.
His victory sends a huge message to the world, that America is indeed a country of tremendous opportunity and promise. The struggles of folks like the Lovings — and Barack Obama’s own parents who surely faced judgment for their relationship in their time as well — have paid off in visible and real ways. We have come so far in terms of civil rights, and this past election was proof of that.
But in terms of equal rights, I believe that this country just took a real step backwards — in Arkansas, where a law passed to prevent unmarried couples from adopting or serving as foster parents, in California with the passage of Proposition 8, and in my state of Florida where Amendment 2 passed. As someone who’s in a marriage that would have once been deemed illegal, I find the parallels between this country’s attitude towards interracial marriage and same-sex marriage to be dismaying and disheartening. And I am not alone — the late Mildred Loving felt the same way, and spoke out in favor of same-sex marriage before she passed away this year. “I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry… That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about,” she declared.
Growing up in the Caribbean, I think I’ve heard just about every argument against homosexuality, every derisive slur, every religious condemnation. Sometimes it feels pointless to argue against people who believe insane things, who act like somehow being gay makes you less of a person. All I can do is assume that they didn’t grow up around gay people. They didn’t have gay relatives or friends. They couldn’t have — otherwise they’d understand that being gay is not a choice. It’s not something you wake up and decide to be, to be shocking or edgy. It is who you are born to be, same as I was born to be a black woman. They would understand that gay, straight, black, white, Latin, Asian, whatever you are – people are people, with the same emotions and needs that we all have.
Seeing the subtle and not-so-subtle discrimination that my gay friends and relatives have endured has had an effect on me. It’s made me jaded towards the “religious” arguments against homosexuality.
I can’t fully understand how someone could call themselves Christians, or spiritual, or “good people,” and say that they believe in a loving and just God, but then simultaneously pour down such fire and brimstone judgment on others because of their sexual orientation. It reveals stunning hypocrisy, in my view.
I have noticed that those who condemn homosexuality tend to pick and choose their Biblical verses very carefully. The verses chosen always come from The Book of Isaiah, or Kings, or Leviticus. Very seldom do these folks consider Matthew, chapter 7 verse 12, the Golden Rule, in their arguments — “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.” Or John chapter 8 verse 7 — let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
I guess these people consider themselves to be without sin, and therefore capable of judging others. But to be really real with you — I don’t believe religious arguments should even matter in this arena. In a country that purports to embrace the separation of church and state, I honestly don’t get how the California Supreme Court decision that recognized same-sex marriage in California as an equal right could be overridden. It is disturbing and scary to me that the rights already granted to the citizens of California could even be taken away, even by a popular vote. I can’t imagine how it would make me feel, if Loving v. Virginia was somehow, someday revoked.
Marriage is such a special commitment. But according to information at DivorceRate.org, 50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce. There are drive through wedding chapels, so if you’re wasted and whimsical in Vegas you can make two bad decisions at once. I’ve known people — Catholics, mind you! — who have had two or three divorces. We watch and cackle at reality television competitions that steer couples towards the altar and end with a rose ceremony — and often, a ring and an on-bended-knee proposal of marriage. So it makes me laugh when straight people say things like marriage is sacred, when it’s been made into such a mockery by so many.
Then you’ll hear arguments like, “I don’t have a problem with gay people, let them be together… call it a civil union, just don’t call it marriage.” Why not? I don’t believe that allowing same sex couples to get married in any way diminishes my own marriage. How on earth would granting the right of a man and another man, or a woman and another woman to be legally joined, affect me? Quite simply, it doesn’t.
I agreed completely with Keith Olbermann’s special comment on Prop 8. I thought his passion was palpable, his words eloquent, and his meaning clear.
I believe that love is love. And people are people. I believe that if two consenting adults love each other and want to get married, they should be able to.
In the meantime, the Proposition 8 movement is provoking expression from wonderful and unexpected sources. Brilliant comedian and former Afrobella of the Week Wanda Sykes had spoken out humorously about gay marriage before, in her stand up special. But because of Prop 8, she is now one of very few black celebrities I can think of who has come out of the closet. Wanda just revealed that she herself has a wife. And I bet they are an adorable couple!
In Wanda’s own words: “Gay is not a choice. That’s like telling me I chose to be a woman, I chose to be black…I am proud to be a woman, I’m proud to be a black woman, and I’m proud to be gay. Now let’s go and get our damn equal rights!”
Anna Quindlen’s great Newsweek essay, The Loving Decision outlines the similarities, and reveals the inevitiability that someday soon, there will be a Loving vs. Virginia for same sex marriage. It’s only a matter of time. Someday, it will seem crazy that same sex marriage was once deemed illegal. Someday. In the meantime, we’re in for more protests and anger, heartbreak and struggle, here in America the land of the free and the home of the brave.
I am not a blogger of color alone in lamenting the passage of Prop 8 and Amendment 2. Jack and Jill Politics, Pam’s House Blend, Incredible Juju, Racialicious, Acts of Faith, That Girl Has Issues, Noctuary, and Simply Fred Smith all did wonderful, informative, eloquent posts examining race and it’s place in the passage of Prop 8. They are all worth a read. And FYI, I got the photo above from this pro-same sex marriage Facebook group.
I expect this to be the kind of post that provokes comments with vastly differing opinions. Please feel free to express yours, but I ask that you remain respectful in doing so.
What are your views on this very hot button issue, bellas and fellas?
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HaitanRoots, CoilyField, DblDee and all my Christian sisters, here is some scripture for y’all…
Matthew 19: 3-12
3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4″Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7″Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
This passage points out a few things to me:
Jesus and Moses were against divorce, Jesus called it a sin, adultery. But yet they did not stand in the way of people who felt that they needed to get a divorce.
In that same vein, why should we as Christians oppose other people’s wishes? Yes I get that it is incredibly hard to raise children in a society that makes pre-marital sex and other sins okay, but it is not impossible. You are a living testament that it possible because you still believe in it, so why do you think that people being able to get spousal health insurance, tax breaks etc* will stop you from raising your children by providing them with all the tools available to you as a christian?
*It may sound trivial, but it is one of the many reasons people want to get married.
I couldn’t care one way or another, but I do not agree with this being compared to the Civil Rights Movement. Even if I wanted to…I couldn’t hide being black, BUT if someone that is homosexual decides they don’t want anyone to know they are gay…no one will know. So in a sense…they do have a choice on how their lives can be lived. When a person sees me…they see that I am a Black woman and there isn’t a “closet” big enough to hide that. It is what it is…
@ Niki
When did I say that people should just marry for the sake of marrying? I said that heterosexual marriage for the purpose of child bearing provides the greatest rewards for a society. Period.
But please don’t pretend like the “spinster” isn’t a very real stereotype. So is the “lonley old man”. I am not saying there is anythingwrong with you not being married, but there is a reason why non-married people pay higher taxes, have a harder time getting approved for loans, etc. It is because our society VALUES marriage because it stabilizes people. That doesn’t mean that people who aren’t married aren’t stable, but if you follow trends with things like alcohol and drug abuse, abortions, prostitution, and other “ills” that affect a society negatively – there is a large percentage of people that have never been married or are divorced.
When you have other people depending on you, you tend to do better. Isn’t that obvious?
@ ceecee, i do believe that everyone should have civil liberties. everyone should be able to have healthcare, etc. if you reread my comments, i never actually said that i wasn’t in agreement with that. my apologies for not being clear.
@ Soul Cookbook
I feel really complelled to say this, because I live in Canada where gay marriage has been legal since 2005. Full marriage. Not just civil Rights. I’ll just respond to what you said though.
“I was the one who said marriage is the foundation of society..heterosexual marriage is PROMOTED BY TH AT SOCIETY. Meaning things like tax breaks are given to people that are married and have children.”
In Canada, tax breaks are given to all married/common law couples with children. All of them. Hetero/homosexual. And out of all the industrialized countries in the world, Canada has one of the lowest public deficits. Because it’s not that the family has a mom & dad & two kids. It’s because the family has children. Tax breaks for people with children aren’t to foster heterosexuality in society. It’s to help children grow in good homes. A child’s development is independent of a parent’s sexual orientation. How many straight kids with straight parents do you know that think abouttheir parents getting it on all day?
“And single people after a certain age do become a drag on society unless they have a good amount of money and a good job. Sorry, this is just fact.”
Actually, if you’re worried about people being able to contribute tax dollars, you should then be all for the gays and gay marriage. Gay men (on average) make about 28% less than their counterparts. And if we’re looking at this from a secular, economic views, we all know then that wage differentials harm the economy. With people making less, they are spending less and paying less tax dollars. Also, to get married, you must pay for a miarriage licence. Disallowing (is that a word?) gay people from getting married=lost taxation revenues. And of course, then they have the actualy wedding ceremony. Excpet they can’t, since they can’t get married= more lost taxation revenues. And so on and so forth.
“If you don’t make enough money to pay federal income tax, you are a drag on society.”
Actually, if you make income, you pay income tax, so this is, with all due respect, a moot point. As soon as you make more than $3,000 you pay income tax. And most adults that don’t live in adject poverty make more than $3,000.
“Most high crime neighborhoods are made up of unmarried people. Most cities with high rates of STD’s consist primarily of unmarried people. Marriage is a stabilixer, whether you want to believe it or not.”
The crime and poor health of these neighborhoods isn’t cause by people not being married. It’s cause (for the most part) by crime and lack of education. It’s again, not having a mom and a dad that they are stable. It’s because they have access to education and don’t live off of a minimum wage job.
Also, I quote a reecent (2003) study done by the Centre for Law and Social Policy done on exactly what you were talking about, I found: “While the increased risks faced by children raised without both parents are certainly reason for concern,
the majority of children in single-parent
families grow up without serious
problems. In addition, there continues to
be debate about how much of the
disadvantages to children are attributable
to poverty versus family structure, as well as about whether it is marriage itself that makes a
difference or the type of people who get married.”
I found it here: http://www.clasp.org/publications/marriage_brief3_annotated.pdf
” And despite the media’s goal to destroy marriage and make it obsolete, it still is very relevant and will always be.”
This statement actually confuses me. Isn’t gay marriage the promotion of marriage, rather than it’s destruction?
“And I never said ANYTHING about religion. My thoughts are religion-free. I do not use religion to justify anything.”
I hope I didn’t either.
* also, since I live in a country that does allow two consenting adults to tie the knot, I should also point out that nobody elses marriages have been affected by these unions. Our society has not fallen apart. Our government is not poor. The roads are still being built, children are still going to school, and all is generally the same. Except we have more equality…or perhaps that’s the wrong way to say it. Maybe I should word it liek this instead: we have a borader definition of equality.
Compassion goes a very long way. Unfortunately, I believe it to be harder than love to give.
I’m still trying to figure out what the issue is. Is it the word marriage? For some, yes. Or is it being able to receive benefits and rights as in heterosexual relationships?
Having been married and since divorced, I said I would never marry again. A civil union sounds good for me. But I do believe that the same rights you give a spouse, should be given to a partner. Marriage shouldn’t be the deciding factor in that. It’s love.
From Melia
“I couldn’t hide being black, BUT if someone that is homosexual decides they don’t want anyone to know they are gay…no one will know.”
That can’t be your best argument. What we call ‘the Civil Rights Movement’ will probably soon be known as the ‘First Civil Rights Movement’. As people of African decent, we do not have some special hold on that phrase. I believe the ‘Second Civil Rights Movement’ will precisely be gays having to demand equal rights as opposed to waiting around for people to do the right thing.
“Tax breaks for people with children aren’t to foster heterosexuality in society. It’s to help children grow in good homes.”
With all due respect, Grace, while Canada and the US may be similar in a lot of ways we are still different countries. In America we have a ton of gov’t sponsored programs for people with children that aren’t married. You can get plenty of assistance as a single parent to ensure your child doesn’t grow up in abject poverty. But for the individual parent, there is no benefit – because the gov’t would still prefer for you to be married.
“The crime and poor health of these neighborhoods isn’t cause by people not being married. It’s cause (for the most part) by crime and lack of education.”
Actually, it is caused by a decline in the nuclear family. Most neighborhoods in America that are high-crime consists of single unwed women and their children. Look at the South Side of Chicago – they have one of the lowest rates of marriage out of any urban city. Same with a lot of other places like South Central Los Angeles and Detroit. When criminals know that there are not a lot of non-violent, stable men living in an area they are more likely to set up shop. Why don’t people run drugs out of homes in upper middle class neighborhoods? Because most of the families there are nuclear, in-tact families. There isn’t as much pressue on “survival” so more attention can be paid to maintaining law and order. So yes, crime is a result of the breakdown of the family. Why do most people turn to crime anyway? For money. Why are they poor? Because there is typically only one income in the household. Why? Because Mom and Dad were not married which made it easier from one to leave. And lack of education, again, is a direct result of poor family structure. When one parent has to put all of their efforts and energy into just maintaining, it is easy for education to be overlooked. Plus a lot of kids from single parent homes just want to earn money to get out of poverty. Spending time and money on an education isn’t as attractive as just going out and trying to make it happen. Sacrificing your early adulthood in class after class vs. making a quick buck to help make ends meet? So the lack of education in these areas is still connected to family structure.
“While the increased risks faced by children raised without both parents are certainly reason for concern,the majority of children in single-parent
families grow up without serious problems,”
What exactly do they define as serious? Because I look at the rates of rape and molestation in the black community due to single parents leaving their kids with wayward relatives or stragers as a serious problem. And they did agree that it is reason for concern, not that it was OK. A paycheck does not replace a mom or a dad.
“This statement actually confuses me. Isn’t gay marriage the promotion of marriage, rather than it’s destruction?”
No, because gay marriage is not marriage. It is redefining the word to fit an agenda. And I never said that gay marriage would destroy marriage, I said the media is trying to destroy it. They have an agenda because the more uneducated, lazy, insecure, liberal-minded people there are, the more money they make. So by waging a war against marriage, which they have been doing for decades, they can indoctrinate an entire generation with the idea that marriage is worthless, antiquated and oppressive for women. None of which is true.
@ Kweenie
What exactly is doing the right thing? People voted for what they believed in. What exactly is the gay community owed here? I voted No on 8 because I didn’t like the fear tactics the other side was using but since the ban I have begun to regret my vote.
This is bigger than just the rights of homosexuals. What about the rights of Christians to practice their religion and believe what they believe? I don’t classify myself as a Christian, but if I did I would fear for my rights to freedom of religion. Churches are being harassed simply because they chose to exercise their base and had people donate money. People are being blacklisted simply for their views. No one went out and beat up gay people or busted up their ceremonies or torched West Hollywood. People simply took their right to vote (which black people didn’t always have) and simply voted what they believe.
So for the gay community to now act as if they have been robbed of a right that some judges decided to give them is a little indignant, if you ask me. I don’t care what you do in your private life or who you love or why. Most people that support traditional marriage don’t hate gay people and some even have gay friends. They just feel differently about what constitutes marriage. Not love, just marriage. Not sex, just marriage. Not the ability to walk down the street and hold your partners hand, just the word “marriage”.
And for those thinking that it’s “just a word” and therefore should be no big deal, you’re wrong. “Nigger” was just a word too. But we all get pretty heated wehn discussing who can or can’t say it or whatever. Words have meaning and you can’t just arbitrarily change the meeting to fit your need.
Wow. I was reading some of the responses. What can I say that hasn’t already been said. I do hope that whatever side of the fence you are on, you can see the others point of view respectfully with your hearts wide open.
BTW, I do support Prop 8.
I really don’t understand the opposition. Seriously, how would the passage of Amendment 8 affect opponents’ lives?!
@Soul Cookbook. I appreciate the objectivity, analysis, sound reasoning and looking at both sides. Thank you.
@ Soul Cookbook
I am terribly saddened that you say that people weren’t getting assaulted for being gay or supporting gay rights. You should reallly go here: http://coilhouse.net/2008/10/22/youtube-brings-on-the-great-prop-8-debate/#comment-10105
and then scroll down to the comment where one of the writers of the blog tells the story of being, well, assaulted.
Just because one person’s religion dictates that being gay is a sin does not make it law. I don’t believe in that God or religion so why should that God and religion dictate how everyone lives. There is more than one religion out there and for some of us there is more than one God. People are born gay, it is not a choice. Who would choose to be ostracized and belittled and hated and discriminated against? And a civil union is NOT the same as a marriage nor does it give you the same rights w/o the title. I know first hand that it doesn’t. I don’t understand why so many people chose to discriminate and yet say that they are just following the bible. That is a cop out! If a gay couple gets married it does not change my straight marriage one bit! I am still married. Gay people are PEOPLE too, just like any other minority, why shouldn’t they have the same HUMAN RIGHTS as the rest of us?
I live in SF and am furious that friends and family who are dear to me have suddenly lost a right because of ignorance and close mindedness.
Does “love thy neighbor” only apply if your neighbor is straight?
@ Soul Cookbook
You said that after a certain age, if a single person doesn’t have a good job or money they become a drag on society. So a person’s worth is determined only by how much they can financially contribute to society? There’s no other meaningful contributions that a person can make? Well I guess that’s the Western Capitalistic view.
Also, you keep saying homosexual unions are best for society, but where is the comparison? Which society is made up mostly of homosexual unions? There simply aren’t THAT many gay people.
Of course for survival of the species, there must be heterosexual relations. However, the vast majority of humans are straight. Has anyone considered that homosexuality could be nature’s form of population control?
I am a lesbian. I just had a huge argument with my mother about prop 8 yesterday. It is amazing how a woman that claims she loves me is against me, her child, having equal rights. That is the most painful thing to endure, but is speaks volumes about society as a whole. I hope none of you are subject to being hated because of who you love. It is not a feeling that can be described.
My mother is by no means a religious person, except when she wants to condemn me to hell for my “choice”. Her argument went further in details of how she wishes the gays didn’t exist and we should not throw it decent people’s faces. I think that is reflective of alot of people’s attitudes. ” I don’t like it so it should not exist.” That is much of the problem. You do not have to like me, but why hurt me.
The religious argument does not hold water. The US is NOT a theocracy. This country was founded on the principles of religious freedom. Yes, the constitution was formulated on the basis that religion and government are sepearate.
Furthermore, the role of representative government is to reflect the will of the majority IF is does not trample the rights of the minority.
I have never felt a want or need to change anyone’s mind about homosexuality. But once you infringe on my right to have equality, that is where the problem exists.
@ Grace – Thanks for some actual FACTUAL insight into this topic.
@ Soul Cookbook –
I’m not even going to address the numerous examples of both plain misinformation & you using your own opinion as fact in your increasingly self-contradictory posts. My fingers can’t even type that fast & I don’t have that type of time.
You’re entitled to your opinion about what environs would be most beneficial to form a stable “nuclear family”, but overall, I find that you’re not that well informed about this subject in the legal sense, beyond what you feel it SHOULD be about.
Case in point:
” that the amendment in California was strictly a free-speech issue. The freedom of the majority to DEFINE what marriage is. ”
WTF?! I mean seriously?! Did you even vote in Cali or are you just making this up?! Cause I’m looking at my voting booklet right here in front of me & under Prop 8, with choice #114 meaning a Yes vote & #115 meaning a No vote, it states that Prop 8 “eliminates the right of same-sex couples to marry.” I quote, verbatim, “Changes California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only marriage between a man & a woman is valid or recognized in California.” It’s right on the ballot, plain as day for all to see.
This is not a “free speech issue”, this was an actual change to the state’s constitution to eliminate the rights of SOME of its people based on sexual orientation. And that is just plain wrong. I don’t care how you feel about it on a personal level. It is discrimination. It is a civil rights issue.
And also, it is totally different from an issue of free speech. How can you even compare the two?!
What you keep arguing & throwing up examples about, this whole gov’t having an interest in promoting hetero marriage as being the most optimal situation premise, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Prop. 8 & similar amendments are about taking away FUNDAMENTAL rights every US citizen is entitled to. UNDER THE US CONSTITUTION, man!
You can feel however you want to feel about the right & wrong of it all or your varying degrees of comfort with the idea of it, but it still comes back to a limitation on a group’s fundamental rights. (BTW, SC, who told you marriage is a “privilege”? It’s a right, anyone at the age of consent can get married. It’s a right, not a privilege. Even Death Row inmates can get married.)
And this is where the “glorious” courts will come in, & probably, hopefully, overturn this shit. If not in the California Supreme Court, then in the US Supreme Court. The Court first & foremost has a responsibility to protect the fundamental rights of ALL of this country’s citizens.
And no, that may not mean that everyone will just embrace the concept of gays marrying & like it, but so what?! Every change takes time to get used to, one day, this will be a total non-issue.
It’s only a matter of time. Gay people had the right for the past 6 months to get married here in California & I’m betting not one person’s life was affected detrimentally by them exercising their constitutional freedoms, can I get some co-signing from any Bellas in Massachusetts or Vermont? Connecticut? Has the earth crumbled & caved in in any of your states since gay marriage was legalized there?
So for all of you that have a problem with it, you need to educate yourselves & keep this in the proper perspective. No one should have the right to just summarily take away the rights of someone else. No one.
Interesting comments. I do feel that CoilyFields hit the nail on the head and put things in perspective.
People often huff and puff at the thought of someone adhering to their religion and christianity gets bashed all the time and those who do not follow often will say …but does not your faith mean you should be doing abc d xyz…still I believe in God’s word and only HIS word and not that of man. The Bible is a tool but you need to have a relationship with God to truly understand His word and his view.
People have mentioned slavery but no where in the Bible is race mentioned. The passages used to justify slavery did not even support slavery and those people who lied on His word will have to answer to God. I personally cannot understand why the colour of my skin should be spoken of in the same light as someone’s sexuality whether that be by choice or not. No matter what I am part of the race that I am born into. It is stamped in my DNA
I am in the uk and they brought in civil partnerships. I just feel that marriage should be left as is, between a man and a woman. to redefine it will only add to further moral decline. Gay folk can have their own union. But that needs another name. Also what about those who are co-habiting will they get the same rights too. will those who have children but living seperately get the same rights too.
Many religions agree when it comes to homesexuality. My church teaches that we are not to hate people because of their sexuality choices. Though understand as a christian what God teaches. This can be done without bashing.
I am sure you will find other religions and countries where there is no tolerance whatsoever yet people blame christianity. Have that conversation God.
Just do you
But know that if you believe in God and have faith and choose not to adhere to what he says it is only HE who you will answer too, not any man.
There is nothing wrong with religion. The problems only occur when people pick and choose bits that suit them.
Is it such a problem to have a different name as they have in the uk. I am sure it is the sanctity of marriage that people voted for. statistics are statistics and can be used like any written text to prove or disprove any point
Blessings to all of you
oooh just spotted a typo
it should read ..Have that conversation with God
@flygirl72 would there be an issue if the union was given a different name instead of marriage. the only reason why i ask is that in the uk the whole emphasis prior to the civil union partnerships was on allowing gay couples equal rights to married straight couples.
@ Kweenie
Since you quoted me…surely you read my first sentence. I said I don’t care one way or another.As for my “best argument”…I have no argument on this because it is of no consequence to me. But to as what you refer to as the “first” Civil Rights Movement…check your facts…the movement of the 60s was not the first…and this current one that many are fighting for will not be the last. Love who you want, but just don’t expect everyone to agree with it. Be easy!
I didn’t realize your hubby was white. I’m in the same boat as you and I just….I can’t imagine not being free to love my boyfriend. He’s stubborn and trying at times but I love him deeply. For it to be illegal to love him……..that’s sickening.
We as a country took two steps forward and four backwards.
“I find it fascinating that some people, Christians included, fixate on certain “sins†such as abortion and gay lifestyles, but there is no comparable uproar to divorce, gluttony, or sloth.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is so so true! Why aren’t people pouring millions to help mend broken marriages? Why are priests and pastors marrying people who are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage? Isn’t divorce a sin? Isn’t eating shellfish a sin (I don’t know a Christian who has turned down shrimp)? Isn’t wearing garment with 2 different materials a sin too?
Why the all out fight against love? As a Christian, I hear the anti-gay marriage stance often enough to know that these people are not being the light of God. We have gotten to the point where people run away from God because of Christians and not towards Him. Some are hiding their own hate-filled agenda’s behind the Bible. What fruits are we producing? How are we showing the same love and compassion that Christ taught by hating others?
We are all sinners, saved by grace. No sin is greater than any other sin. Wasn’t it Jesus who said, he without sin, let him cast the first stone? Wasn’t it Jesus who said before you take the speck out of your neighbors eye, pull the plank out of yours? Wasn’t it Jesus who said “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.” And again, “Whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters, that you do to Me.”
We are we so quick to point fingers and cite false and grossly incorrect “facts” to prove a point that is mute?
Instead of trying to be God, more people need to be trying to be like God (his traits, love, kindness, compassion, etc…) and the world would be a much better place.
71 comments and counting – I was expecting some responses but this is encouraging. And good. Yes – good because at least we’re discussing things civilly and sharing opinions and trying (TRYING)not to judge. This is a tough one, and it is difficult to present an opinion that doesn’t automatically polarize the opposite side. So to HaitianRoots, CoilyFields, Soul Cookbook, SoFrolushes – I respect you for stating your opinions. Obviously we disagree on several fundamental points, but I am glad you are here to speak your piece.
Also, SoFrolushes, I just saw that Elton John agrees with you – he is content to have a civil partnership, and thinks the word marriage will forever be the stumbling block for this struggle.
And again I will reiterate – in a country that promises freedom to its citizens, and believes in the separation for church and state, these propositions and amendments will not stand. They will eventually be legally overturned. Same sex marriage will inevitably have its own landmark supreme court case. And because the arguments against gay marriage are all ultimately steeped in religious reasoning, someday marriage between two consenting adults of any gender will be recognized as legal in the United States. It is only a matter of time.
I think gay marriage is going to become a reality here in the United States… and if you don’t want a gay marriage, be in a hetero one. Gay or straight, don’t cheat and creep around. And if you don’t want to get married, be single and stop sleeping around with whomever. Keep your legs closed for your own health and safety! Can I just say that I’m waiting for the protests on HIV rates in our community and on where the money for HIV prevention actually goes?
That said, I was not a fan of Olbermann’s special comment on the issue. He had some good points but when he brought slavery and interracial marriage into the mix, I wondered, just who are you talking to, Keith? I think he’s great but it seemed like he fell for the lie that it’s black folk’s fault that Prop 8 passed and he was trying to chastise black people.
I was called two days before election day by a No on 8 supporter who said legalizing gay marriage was the modern day equivalent of ending slavery. We all have our opinions but I think it’s a racist and wholly inappropriate comparison. I actually wondered if it was a Yes on 8 person trying to target black households and anger us into voting no because it was such a problematic comparison. AND I’m still waiting for the comparisons to the Jewish experience in the Holocaust but I think I’ll hear crickets before THAT gets voiced
Now I’m reading people’s blog posts where they’re saying that marching in a Prop 8 protest is like people marching in Selma. Oh really? Because dogs were chasing you? Because the Klan came and terrorized you and set your property on fire? Those sort of comparisons show a lack of discernment and an inability to understand what slavery and Jim Crow really entailed. And I love how people are all over the Loving case but why is it that there aren’t more interracial gay relationships? Why do I have my friends talking about the “white” gay bar and the “black” gay bar? Civil rights issue of our time? Because racism is over? Because my sons and millions of other black children don’t still attend de-facto segregated schools? I’m not going to engage in “Oppression Olympics” but I’m not feeling that comparison.
It’s also interesting to me to have had so many gay friends who have denounced marriage as a culturally conservative relic of a bygone age, and have said that it’s a piece of paper and nothing else, but now that we’re older, they want to get married! Maybe they just mocked it back in the day because they thought they could never have one. I don’t know. It just makes me chuckle a little bit.
In any case, I think the name calling on both sides (sinner/bigot homophobe/sodomite) has got to end. If you have issues with religion, don’t use gay marriage as your platform for telling folks why you think the Bible is a fairytale, and if you think gay people are sinners that are going to hell, say a prayer for them instead of holding up some sort of crazy sign that makes you look like some sort of weirdo.
I hear the refrain of Rodney King(bless his heart) ….Can we all get along?
Sometimes I’m a little slow on the uptake. Why aren’t civil unions acceptable? Same-sex couples would have the same rights as married spouses, tax breaks, property rights, adoption rights (in CA), etc.?
I don’t know anyone (in their right mind) who opposes civil unions.
However,if someone values marriage primarily as a religious union in the eyes of God, a sanctified sacrament that is a testament of faith, with state issues such as property ownership coming secondary, they are not going to support gay marriage.
I don’t disagree with that. Just as you wouldn’t want someone imposing their religious beliefs on you, you can’t impose your disregard for their beliefs of them.
Finally, I know I sound like Sean Hannity (ugh) but laws prohibiting same-sex marriages also prohibited sibling marriage and polygamy. Are you prepared to lift the bans on those marriages also?
Get rid of state/gov’t sanctioned marriage.
Everybody gets civil unions.
You want to get married? Go to the church of your choice. Stand before your God and your community and affirm the tenets of your faith.
But if you want the social status, legal rights and economic benefits that come with a declaration of a life partnership, then civil unions for everybody, gay, straight, whatever.
Problem solved. No hand-wringing about The Gays forcing you to choose between equality and faith. No losing sleep about threats to the sanctity of marriage.
But that’s an idea that makes way too much sense for any momentum to ever gather behind it.
Required viewing:
http://freeheld.com/
And @BlackHoney, are you really going to compare partnerships between two consenting adults to the pathology and abuse of sibling marriage? Word?!?
Why does sibling marriage have to be abusive? If two consenting adults realize the implications of their actions and have decided to live with them, who am I to suggest that they shouldn’t be together.
Is it really any of my business?
Would it be yours?
Hey sofrolushes,
yeah, it would still matter, although I guess I could pose the same question to you. Because isn’t this question of semantics, civil union vs. marriage, really at the root of this much bigger problem?
Why do some of you not care if it’s called a civil union but you do care if it’s called marriage? If it is the same rights involved, why not just call it what it is & always has been called? Marriage! A rose by any other name….
Why does a person calling his/her same-sex partner their husband or wife indicate, as you put it, “further moral decline”?
But look, what I have a real problem with here, is the readiness of so many of you to deny fellow citizens their fundamental rights based off the fact that from a religious standpoint, you disagree with how they’re living. That is just plain, flat out discrimination, and playing with fire, to boot. Justify & hide behind religion all you want. You should just own up to the fact that it’s more because of your own personal biases & opinions on the subject that you are so ready to throw the rights of someone else under the bus in the name of God & the Bible or whatever else you want to try to blame it on but your own prejudices. Because there were plenty of religious & devout people who went to the polls & voted no to restricting rights, no matter how they felt about the topic morally.
It’s about upholding the law of the land.
@DJStylus, interesting idea, but you’re right, it makes too much sense, anyways, if that happened, what then could us heteros have over the gays? No, no, gotta keep an upper hand some kind of way, eh?
@BlackHoney, wow, you’re comparing two consenting adults in a same sex union to incest…er, showing our true colors dear…
@Los Angelista, I hear you & I agree that the No on 8 people made a lot of mistakes in their campaign execution prior to the election. However, I don’t think we should take their comparisons to our own civil rights struggle literally, tit for tat, blow for blow (now, the slavery comparison, that’s a first, even I woulda had to check them on that) It should be taken more in the context that civil rights are being violated.
And I too, have been furious at various media outlets who were so quick to blame Cali’s Black community (where we account for less than 6% of the overall population) as the reason that Prop 8 passed. Especially bloggers like Andrew Sullivan at The Atlantic & Dan Savage. I’m going to YouTube that Olbermann piece…
Bobby Kennedy said in 1968 that a black man could become president in 40 years. Well, looky, looky, it happened! 40 years ago Americans would not have voted for a black man, thankfully most of those bigots died off. Gays will have the right to marry, I say, in less than 20 years. It will be my generation to do it for them. We just need to wait for some people to well…you know…
The Rev. Al Sharpton said one time that we need to stop worrying about what people do in their bedrooms and worry about if they have food in their kitchens.
I am straight but want to say to my gay brothers and sisters, civil rights for blacks didn’t come easy or all at one time. You guys will win this battle…if that pretty blue electoral map is any indication, you just have to have hope.
Now, since I’m 34, single, and have no children I’ll just drop dead.
My point is shouldn’t you allow consenting adults across the board to marriage if they wish? If an adult brother and sister want to marry, let them. (Seriously, did ya’ll see that BBC America special?)
If a woman want to marry two men, let her.
It’s a private matter between consenting adults.
(And I’m not being sarcastic)
This too shall pass! Gays will get their right to marry and it will be legal in all fifty states.
I am a natural bella who, for a time, considered herself bisexual before questioning my same-sex attractions, which I began to have in my early 20s. That said, I *do not* believe homosexuality is a choice. I didn’t choose my feelings. But I did choose whether or not I’d act on them and my choice was not to. In hindsight, my attractions made sense.
I had a f-d up relationship w/ my Dad, was sexually abused as a child and always thought men only wanted to sleep with me or abuse me. Women were safer. I’m NOT saying all women who identify as lesbians/bi have been abused nor that it’s a precursor to being gay. I think there are many, varied reasons why people identify of gay/lesbian/bi/transgendered. I’m just saying that’s what happened to me. After realizing what the root causes of my attractions were, I learned how to deal with them and, very long story short, they greatly diminished. Today, I don’t define myself by my temptations but who I am in Christ.
I’m sure many of you will think what I just wrote is total crap and think I’ve been brainwashed by the religious nuts but I came to that decision after a long and winding road. And if we’re all quoting Bible verses, while the Bible does say that he who is without sin shouldn’t cast the first stone, it also says
However, I also think that it’s a double standard that if someone decides to come out of the closet it’s ok, but if that same person decides to question homosexuality, it’s automatically called “hate,” or “repressing those feelings,” or “religious brainwashing.” I agree, Bella, that in the past (and unfortunately today, still) the church has treated the gay community like crap and that was, and is, completely against the teachings of Christ. And the church has been wildly hypocritical, with scandals and judgments galore. And that is unfortunate. But the church isn’t perfect, and I feel many people who consider themselves followers of Christ (because really, the word “Christian” means so many things to so many people), have come a long way in regard to this issue, and treat people of all orientations, etc, with dignity and respect.
Simply saying you disagree is not hate, which is why I don’t get the comparison to the civil rights movement. While gays have been persecuted in the U.S and abroad, and I have and will continue to support my gay friends to speak out against such persecution, I DO NOT “hate” them.
“Hate” is turning the hose on people. “Hate” is hanging gay teens, like they do in Iran. Hate is turing the dogs on people, as they did in the 60s; hate is not being allowed to express and opinion or vote, like they did to blacks. Hate is burning crosses on lawns and being forced to sit in the back of the bus. Disagreeing is not hate.
Gay marriage will one day be the law of the land and at this point, I’m indifferent about that. So for me it comes down to this: allow me, and others who espouse traditional views of marriage, the right to an opinion and allow those who want to question homosexuality the right to do so. You may think I’m completely crazy, but just as I would never invalidate someone else’s experience, gay or straight, do not invalidate mine. That is true tolerance.
Wow! It is clear that there are 2 views being expressed on this post: the Judeo-Christian nuclear family/moralistic view point and the humanistic “as long as it feels good and ain’t hurting nobody” civil rights view point. These mindsets have been at odds from the beginning and there will never be a compromise. We can only hope to agree to disagree and treat each other with respect.
The big question for America is ‘which ideal will prevail?’ The social implications of leagalizing same sex unions is that this lifestyle will be taught to our children in public schools as normal behavior when it constitutes a small part of the population. To some this is teaching tolerance. To others this is an attack on their faith and opens the door for grouse darkness & the judgement of God on this country.If children are taught in kindergarten (this is already happening in Conneticut) that this is normal, it will teach tolerance but can also influence them to experiment with the lifestyle out of pure curiosity.
Thank God (yes God) we live in America and can express our concerns and shape and re-define our world. The europeans who established the gov’t were protestants so the laws that gave us this unprecedented freedom of speech was based on christian values. In fact, laws are not created in a vacuum. All governments are established upon the morals/religion of the majority or the group with the most fire power. LOL
Hmmmm…O America, we the people are at a fork in the road. Which path will we take? Can we survive the consequences of our actions?
Why is it that all the intolerant folks on here are the ones asking that their opinions be tolerated? All your posts start off nice, then the big “buuu-tt…” comes into play… LOL…
And Alina, thanks for your definition on what you think “true tolerance” really is, but I beg to differ. True tolerance would be to recognize that this is a country whose gov’t is (supposed) to be based on separation of church & state, therefore, your religious beliefs/personal hangups shouldn’t be allowed to play a role in taking away from a group of people access to a fundamental right in this country.
And when people start using these “traditional” views, as you put it, to vote to deny fellow citizens equal protections under the law, then it crosses over into an area just as sinister & intolerant as all those other examples of “hate” you ticked off. How did you gauge that anyway? What makes some forms of hate qualify more than others in your book? You don’t have to use no dogs & hoses to cause other people to catch hell, you know.
To me it is a matter of civil rights. I couldn’t care less how folks feel about it or want to opine about it on a moral/personal level. I understand & respect that is going to vary from person to person. On that, I agree, you can feel however you want.
Oppression is oppression & we all suffer when we start picking & choosing who gets access to basic rights like this. It’s not good for anyone.
If we start picking at the loose threads on the edges of this fabric, just watch how quickly it will unravel on us all, trust.
Oh beautiful afrobella… alright so I have many angles for this one. I am a Christian, two of my sisters are lesbians and my soon to be spouse is white. God loves us all despite our sin, and we are to love each other as ourselves. I do not judge, and I hope that through Christ they receive and believe, but only God calls those to him. I love your articles, but I believe you should ask the questions and seek the answers instead of making the false assumptions. Check the reference (the Bible) for all of your answers, not pieces. You wouldn’t do such a thing if it had to do with a cosmetic product now would ya.
All I can do is pray that Gods will be evident in my life and that I am able to shine on the people around me. He will take care of the rest.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Bella. But this is a bone of contention in my household. My husband is South American/West Indian and the issue of gay rights brings about arguments everytime. The tone of those conversations remind me of how simmilar yet different we are culturally.
I cannot believe that people think that an ancient text is the arbiter of modern life. How dare anyone assume their decision to live by a book which is full of inconsistencies, holes and downright madness be the final word on how all citizens should live. If you choose to live your life by the book so be it. Does your god demand that you slavishly follow the book? Are you not allowed to exercise your free will and tell your god he is wrong?
And pardon me for disagreeing with the notion that America was built on Christian principles. Um from what I have read it was the exploitation of many groups of people which built America.
Great discussion, even though it caused a lot of folks’ hackles to get raised. Maybe in a couple of days we need a “palate-clensing” post on eyeliner or something LOL Keep up the good work, Bella. Lesser bloggers would’ve shut this thread down long ago or not even allowed the discussion to take place.
I believe in God. I attend church, I have a personal relationship with God. I believe God has given us our sexuality.
If God in his infinite Wisdom gives us something and we believe that God doesn’t make mistakes, then how can being gay be this horrid sin? Your sexuality was given to you by God.
I never decided to be straight. I never thought today I will be attracted to men. I just am, so how can we assume it different for a person in a same gender relationship?
I used to be insulted when Gay people compared this to the civil rights of African Americans in America. Then Ellen DeGeneres said.†Its like they told Black people they were separate but equal. And they were not equal and you could tell .†So its not a about people looking at me and seeing I’m black as apposed to you have to tell people you are gay. Its about being denied the rights and privileges given to other citizens based on a bias.
Finally if the church is against gay marriage, there is nothing we can do about it now. HOWEVER marriage is not purely a church / religious thing in America many people get married in the court only. SO it has become something for citizens, and to deny a citizen a right or privilege given to other citizens based on anything is discrimination and wrong.
ditto on that to monie and mochachoc! I think it to be totally unfair that religion can have an effect on this. Makes me extremely mad! Just because someone believes their morals to be right does not make it just!
The arguement that homosexuality is a sin is a weak arguement. This country is supposed to function as church and state seperate, yet the two seem to be best friends. Don’t force your religious views on the people of the country, it is OPPRESSIVE. According to the Christian religion, women could be seen as the origin of sin. What if there were laws that made it impossible for women to be independent beings and make their own decisions because they are a threat to the morals and ethics of Christianity? Think about that the next time you quote God and the Bible as a reason to OPPRESS homosexuals.
I applaud people who have a strong and healthy relationship with God and/or any other religion, but Christianity is not MY religion and my life does not revolve around the Bible. The same can be said for nearly a fourth of the people in this country. Why make laws that only cater to Christianity?
Also, using religion to oppress a group of inidividuals gives religion a bad rap. Religion should be used for good, not to oppress, punish or ostracize people. What kind of message are you sending about Christianity by doing the latter?
Great discussion going on here and I appreciate all of the views being shared.
Bless you CoilyFields! Well said with love.
if you ask anyone their opinion on an issue they are going to come at you from their own frame of reference, using their own moral compass. when prop 8 was placed on the ballot and people voted for and against it, while there is a separation of church and state, people used their own moral compass in making their decisions on how to vote. as long as there is a majority christian society and this vote is open to their opinion prop 8 will not pass. we all hold to the tenet that the “voice of the people is the voice of god”. if you want true separation of church and state, let an impartial system (judicial, legistative, etc) be the arbiter…failing that, we will need to wait till the us is not largely a christan nation…
Why not call it a civil union? The color of your skin is not something you choose but who you want to spend your life with is. Do you also support NAMBA? How about the man down the street that wants to marry his dog (it’s his best friend after all)?
How far will these equal rights go? There was a time when you believed free enterprise was selling herb on campus? Will you share the same views when your inter-racial kids go off to college? How about when those same kids are treated differently because of their latte skin color?
i find the comparisons between the struggles of people of african descent against slavery, mob violence in post-reconstruction america, jim crow, lynching, segregation, environmental racism, and so on and the challenges that gays encounter to be historically inaccurate, insulting, ignorant, ill-informed and unlikely to yield any sort of meaningful coalition between blacks and gays, not to mention among the black gay community and the larger gay community. such comparisons are intended to diminish our exeperiences as the descendants of enslaved africans. as noted above @ los angelista, where are the comparisons to the holocaust or the internment of the japanese?
and although i have not checked the statistics lately, i do not recall a period in american history when gays were randomly rounded up and lynched en masse as was the case with blacks in america.
further, some have commented about the struggle for interracial marriages however have failed to note that people of african descent also had to struggle for the legal right to marry intraracially. let us remember that “jumping the broom” was all that black folks could do for centuries before people of african descent obtained the right to legally marry each other.
also, limiting the discussion to christianity and homosexuality reflects a lack of acknowledgment for the existence and practice of the many other religious communities that exist in america. your comment may have read better as follows:
“I have noticed that those [Christians] who condemn homosexuality tend to pick and choose their Biblical verses very carefully.”
I live in Canada and same-sex marriage has been legalized here since July 20, 2005. I was so happy to see California jump on board, and feel sick that Proposition 8 passed. I think it was Ellen DeGeneres who said something along the lines of how terrible it was to leave the rights of a minority up to a majority. I couldn’t agree more with her. I was shocked that it was even put up to popular vote after the California Supreme Court’s decision.
I believe in God. I have always considered myself Catholic, though a “liberal” one at that. I am fascinated by religion in general and enjoy learning about the history of religions. However, I struggle a lot with the stance the Catholic church, like so many other religions, when it comes to homosexuals, and gay-marriage in particular, because I don’t agree with it. I wish there was a religion I knew of which accepted gay-marriage, because I would feel more comfortable in that church than in one which misuses the name of God to condemn others. Gay-marriage does not hurt anyone. So what’s the big deal? You worded it perfectly when you said that it makes you laugh “when straight people say marriage is sacred, when it’s been made into such a mockery by so many”.
I hope one day in the very near future gay people will be allowed to MARRY, not simply enter “civil unions”, and that eventually people will be able to look back with shame when they see the foolish, ignorant way their ancestors acted.
Gay marriage has nothing to do with Christianity, and for those who try to mix the two maybe they should know what exactly they are dealing with, on both sides. A Christian church doing same-sex marriages… trust me that church will not last very long..and it is just as hypocritical as the idea of such marriage.
I understand if people fight for the right they are entitled to, but it is different than if someone makes up the lack of some rights and takes the role of a victim. And also God’s law is not civil law, they are very different.